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Hello fellow tread heads!
I prefer 1/50th (1/48th) scale, I seen many of the 1/56th scale models and although beautiful they look WAY to small to me – allow me to explain.
We had a modeling pro come in a few years ago and gave us his assessment, at first he kept saying “I don’t know, something is not right with these little guys” he took some with him to paint and look over.
He returned after about a week and claimed he had figured out what the problem was. In his looking them over he began to explain that it was not the vehicles but the miniatures that were the problem (needless to say that went over like a rock – I mean everyone in the room except for him has invested a lot into the 28mm minis) – he further explained that their proportions are way off. You would have to re do the miniatures to fit any one of the vehicles scales.
In short his conclusion for us was that the models in height are 28mm – 1/56th scale but that is where it ends.
The models girth (thickness) and the weapons and equipment are along the lines of 1/48th. This is why when you see these models inside the smaller (1/56th scale for example) vehicles they look crammed in – because the miniatures is actually about twice the normal thickness he should be – large head, huge hands, thick torso, and so on.
For the height issue there were other factors that aided us make the choice of which scale to use – most models are cast with a base attached to the feet which further adds to the height, and then most of us war-gamers add a miniature base also. Once this is done your model is in actuality 1/48 – 1/50th scale – in height – as far as we were concerned this has to be included because the miniatures will be based in some way, shape or form.
When modeling, modelers tend to place the models on the same level on a base (Dioramas and such) however their models are in proportion to one another, if you did this with these miniatures they would look way to small next to 1/50th and way to chunky/ large next to 1/56th scale vehicles.
Because of this information we went with 1/48th – 1/50th because when the models are added to bases they are in height and girth more in proportion with those vehicles.
***SECOND PART OF THE ARTICLE**************************
Let’s have a closer look at this and further explain:
Your choice of scale is a personal choice – what looks good to you. However as said before the problem lays with the miniatures them selves, not the vehicles because they are “true to their scale”. No one argues that a 1/48th, 1/50th, or a 1/56th is in proportions true to the scale it is representing even they tend to contract or expand slightly depending on the maker also but not by much .
I have found modelers have a more objective approach to this debate because they work with much truer proportions than we gamers do, have a look at this site where a modeler (not a gamer) is baffled by the 28mm miniature:
28mm “Scale” Applied to Vehicle Models as Imagined by Me
It really does come down to what you are use to seeing.
Here as someone mentioned so wisely – a real photo for comparison. U.S. infantry next to a Sherman tank:
Please note there are approximately 8 infantrymen walking next to the Sherman tank and with PLENTY of room to spare. Note the height of the men next to the vehicle.
Here is a photo of a similar setting however with a 1/50th Sherman and 28mm men on bases.
This vehicle barely has 4 models beside it and even though the height is correct the girth is not, the 28mm models are about 2 plus sizes too chunky. Note the model on the end is a Tamiya 1/48th miniature and not a 28mm war gaming miniature – and again note the proportions.
Here is a 1/56th scale sherman with 28mm models…
These photos with an even smaller vehicle (1/56th) and compare the the photo of the actual WWII photo. In addition the Sherman is mounted on a base which really makes the girth of the 28mm models stand out – they are simply too small.
Try to imagine the vehicles that are suppose to be able to accommodate 10 – 12 models such as the 251 Hanomag or the U.S. M3 Half tracks in either scale.
Here is a shot of a 1/48th Tamiya U.S. Infantryman holding a B.A.R and a 28mm U.S. infantryman holding a Carbine:
See how the girth compares with each other? And when next to each other the 28mm miniatures look VERY odd. Once again it is because the 28mm model is not proportioned properly as a man would be. In addition the proportions transfer to the equipment the model is holding, the carbine is almost as big as the B.A.R. and the ammo pouches, packs and so on – have all increased in size.
This is some of the research we had received and thus went to the larger scale of 1/50th, for us the added cast base on the model and the added 25mm base in addition to the girth greatly increases the size of the 28mm model to the point that this was a better “fit“- but by no means the best. It was the opinion of the researchers that the only way it will ever be “made right” is to correct the 28mm model (which also varies greatly in scale – 25mm – 33mm) and I don’t believe that is ever going to happen due to the enormity of the ranges in the industry.
I agree 100 percent that the choice is up to the individual – after all the models are yours and I have to say I really love the 28mm models as I have had collections since I was a child.
However I will say know your facts and the fact is there is no 28mm vehicle line out there (unless you want on that looks like the one in the link above). We do believe though that the better fit is the 1/48th – 1/50th scaled vehicles.
Just wanted to show why we choose to go in the direction we did.
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Very simple and powerful – I like it 🙂
****************I have added this bit of information*******************
I have added this bit of information due to comments made, here is the response:
Hmmmm. OK, I’ll agree with you to an extent. However, that said- the point about the girth being off is not proved by your pictures.
Hmmmmm, well I believe these pictures speak a thousand words and are most definitely a show of the girth of the models being a huge problem. They stand as what they are; however here is more for you:
You have on your article a grayed out German soldier, if the 28mm miniatures looked more like the grayed out German soldier than you would be spot on, however we both know they don’t so I have added a 28mm grayed out to your graph and you can see the stark contrast. In addition I have taken the soldier in your half track photo and added him to your graph grayed out. It is clear that the 2 end grayed out figures have much more in common than the 28mm model in the middle.
So unless you are speaking of properly proportioned 28mm miniatures, it renders the article moot. Here is a photo of a 1/48th, 28mm and a real man together standing next to each other and compare them. Clearly the 1/48th model is much closer than the 28mm miniature and it further shows the exaggerated features of the 28mm model.
The bases spread the figures out much more than the real ones- if you were to have the figures standing purely on their integral cast bases, they’d be a lot closer together. Another factor to consider is the choice of poses, particularly in the picture with the 1:56th tank- you’ve chosen figures that are *extremely* “wide” in their poses, so they will obviously not fit in. The fact that they are on 30mm-wide bases doesn’t help much either.
In war gaming the bases are the AOO (Area of Operation) so you have standard base sizes for different size models and in the industry 25mm bases are such for a human size miniature. However once again let’s take your point and put it to the test. I have grayed out a 1/50th scale Sherman and placed several 28mm miniatures in from of it and they don’t come close to the actual real photo of real men walking along side it:
1/50th scale Sherman
This photo below is of a 1/56th scale Sherman, a clear difference in the 2 pictures – no need for words – compare this to the real photo.
1/56th scale Sherman
I’ve put my thoughts on the whole thing together at http://mainly28s.com/how_to/measuring_scale.html
I have read your write up and I do not see at any point that you address the girth of the 28mm miniature, in addition the models in question are on a integral base and then in most cases based again which also should be addressed. I do like your presentation though – well written but for me not complete.
This is the most compelling research I have even seen, how brilliant to ask modelers and come from a modelers point of view.
I do agree with the fact that it is up to the individual, but once again given the information I will go with 1/50th scale vehicles! What ever you pick just have fun with it 🙂
Anatoli;
Once again, great looking models and thank you for posting the pictures. For me though it really shows the girth issue with the models in comparason to the vehicles. There are supose to be FIVE of those guys in the T34 in your picture. From the pictures, you could barly get three in there.
Good work though!
Warlord
As for pictures of models where 1:56 vehicle and infantry are on the same level and taken from the side AND where the models are NOT bulky from body armor/gasmasks and in fact made for the same range of vehicles they are standing next to (Bolt Action Miniatures):
[IMG]http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g183/Anatoli_2006/SoTR/PB250020.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g183/Anatoli_2006/SoTR/PB250021.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g183/Anatoli_2006/SoTR/PB250023.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g183/Anatoli_2006/SoTR/PB250024.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g183/Anatoli_2006/SoTR/PB250025.jpg[/IMG]
Anatoli:
Here is your 1:56th BA-64 and a real one for comparason:
There is a big difference in the size of the men in the photo to your models Sir, you will not get those models in that vehicle due to the girth of the miniatures.
I did want to make it clear that none of this is personel and again you do great work but I simply donot agree with you, however use what ever models you like Sir – looks like you are having fun with it and that is what matters. Keep up the great work on your models.
Warlord
Anatoli;
Welcome and wanted to let all know that a lot of the photos of the smaller vehicles are indeed this fella’s work, you painting of your models are great – you do fantastic work.
I see your comments above and it further proves my point, ” Sure the hatches are perfect, but everything else is way off.” I understand what you are saying here however it is saying the same thing as mentioned above and that is that the miniature is the problem and not the vehicles (in addition if the hatches are perfect on the larger scales, then what are the smaller hatches on the smaller vehicles?), however I remain by my conclusion that the 1:48th – 1:50th scales are the correct scales, the smaller 1:56 – 1:60 are just far to small. Mounting your vehicles on bases (IMHO) further exasperates the problem because it brings the “chunky” miniatures height down when they indeed need more height due to the girth of the miniature.
I would love to see your vehicle at ground level with a miniature beside it instead of the angeled shot above if you get a chance…
To each his own, once again I will remain with the larger scales. I have not seen any evidence of it being a better choice.
Remember, miniature, integral base, mini glued to game base all ad to the height of the miniature which puts in more in line with the 1:48th – 1:50th scale vehicles (and as you said the hatches are percect). bases on minis with the smaller vehicles maintains the girth problem.
What ever you do, have fun!
Warlord
The thread on the SoTR forum from where the 1:60 Sherman picture is taken from
Here are two REAL 1:56th vehicles based on 2mm thick plasticard from my photobucket album
http://s56.photobucket.com/albums/g183/Anatoli_2006/SoTR/?action=view¤t=PC230015.jpg
I personally find 1:60 to small, 1:56 to look just right in HULL SIZE and that is the most important thing – when based on something that brings it up to the same level you compare infantry models with. Everything above 1:56 like 1:50/1:48 looks grotesquely oversized. Sure the hatches are perfect, but everything else is way off.
Pete:
I agree that the best scale for 1/48th scale tanks is 1/48th scale miniatures, and that 28mm miniatures are to short but once again once you add them to their bases they are just about right for the height. 1/56th is no way the right scale – just too small – especially concerning the girth or as you said “chunky” nature of the models 🙂
Thank you for youe input and glad you enjoyed the article
Warlord
At last someone exposes the awful proportions of 28mm figures! It’s a good article, thanks for sharing. I bought into 28mm a while back, but have since decided to drop to 1/76 – 1/72 scale as the proportions of most of the metal figures are much better, or even if they are chunkier, it is not as obvious. Personally I wouldn’t use 28mm figures with 1/48 scale models as the figures are too short. To explain this point, I bought a Tamiya StuG-III and compared some 28mm figures and some of the 1/48 scale Russian figures from North Star Figures and the 1/48 scale figures were a perfect match, not taking into account that the figures are mounted on bases about 2mm thick. I no longer have the figures or model to take pics, sorry.
I agree with most of your points, but some need to be discussed further, I will hold a small talk with my buddies and perhaps I will look for you some advice later.
– Henry
Terry: Games Workshop would not fit this only because there is nothing to compare their models too as they are all made up/ created by G.W.
Rob, Thank you and welcome! please feel free to place a link on your site to this article ans spread the word. Many have already found their answer here and I am happy to have assisted as this plagued me a for a long time.
I would also recommend the vehicles by PMD as well. they are not model kits but a war gamers kit and great models. Table Top gaming news ran a spread on them:
http://www.tabletopgamingnews.com/2010/09/09/39141
As a company that has a line of WW2 1/48th scale miniatures and stocks lots of vehicle kits we agree with this article!
Nicely put together and shows the virtues of 1/48 and working with a proper scale for vehicles and related equipment. The comments about proportion is nicely explained.
If anyone is inspired or converted by this article you might want to try and hunt down some of the corgi and solido die cast vehicles, scales vary a little between 1/43 and 1/50 but they look good with 1/48th or 28mm minis.
Alternatively if you want kits in 1/48 the Hobby Boss range are inexpensive if you want Russian or American, and Tamiya do most of the rest.
http://www.scarabminiatures.com
Just one thing to say here: Games Workshop.
Interesting take on this issue. I for one have seen many twists on this and can often spot the holes in the arrangement however, on this occasion I believe your writing is such that everyone should be in agreement with this. Thank you for sharing it with us.
Thank you guys for the many compliments and appreciations. please feel free to link to this article and enlighten more of our Battle brothers out there. At least if a person buys into the 1:56th line they know what they are getting into.
Warlord.
Fantastic resource, very well researched. Thanks for providing this. I migrated to using 1/50 and 1/48 scale vehicles for most of my collection, except for 1/56th scale in smaller early war vehicles that are typically hard to get any other way.
Amiable post and this helped me a lot.
I am wondering why more are noticing this? It seems to me that companies that make the smaller scales only do so to have a scale all to their selves. There is no denying the facts here!
Once again great post!
Ala
Mr. Dietch
Thank you for your compliments on the article, however you have stated that there are Westwind and the Tamiya models having issues, being not true to their scale and so on…
This is the point, it does not change the issue at hand, the Tamiya model was used mainly to show the Proportions (girth) of the “28mm” models bring over-sized, however when you get down to it in the industry the “28mm” scale also suffers from “shrinkage in the reproduction and design process” as you put it. As many of us know Bolt action and Foundry minis run small, Artizan, Black Tree, and Crusader run about “Industry standard” which is not really 28mm but a bit larger, and so on.
You also said “If you notice the crew figures for 1/56th models, they are much smaller than the other models in the line, so as too accurately fit into the models.” This further proves the point that 1:56th scale is NOT the true scale. Companies are making smaller models to “accurately” (as you stated) fit the vehicles and in the same breath saying “these are the true scale for 28mm vehicles”. If that were the case it would not be necessary to make smaller models to fit into the vehicles.
You can deal with the variations of miniatures because Human beings are different sizes, however some areas if you are trying to remain true to a scale you can’t compromise such as a vehicles, weapons and equipment. These items have a definite size for the most part, a MP40 is the same size rather it is carried by a big guy or a little guy. Proportions, unless there are medical issues involved” are along the same lines. People tend to have proportions that are standard. So when considering scale you MUST consider girth as part of it, other wise you can see a model that is the right height but has 3 x the girth of a normal man and say “Hey, he is a 28mm model” because of the height!
Once again 1”56th scale and 1/60th scale are too small. The girth of the miniatures and then adding a cast base to it and then adding a base to the model for gaming puts them in line to be more accurate with 1:48 – 1:50th scale vehicles.
Simply – again – there is no “true” scaled vehicles for the current 28mm miniatures out there now because they are not “true” 28mm miniatures. However all things considered – girth with cast base and a war game base make them closer to the larger scale – 1:48th – 1:50th, when the models are placed in hatches and inside vehicles the girth quickly fills the vehicles and again the larger (48th – 50th) vehicles are a better fit. The best fit is the 1:48th – 1:50th scale vehicles
The 1:56th kits are beautiful but just too darn small.
Warlord
Nice article and great research. Two issues though. The Sherman you showcase appears to be a Westwind Sherman kit. It is not 1/56th scale, but is actually 1/60th scale.
Also, Tamiya 1/48 figure models are not true 1/48. They are actually a bit under scale, approximately 1/55. The plastic models suffer from shrinkage in the reproduction and design process.
A more accurate representation would be the metal 1/48 figures from Dartmoor or Quarter kit and others. A 28mm based miniature from Artizan will have his helmet just touch the top of the shoulder of a similar based 1/48 miniature (quarter kit or Corgi.
The New hobby boss shermans provide a few figures that show the size difference pretty well. They are accurate 1/48 representations in height and girth, and as such, do not really blend in to a metal 28mm or 1/48th army.
If you notice the crew figures for 1/56th models, they are much smaller than the other models in the line, so as too accurately fit into the models. So in that regard they look smaller than their “same scale” standing cousins, but do show that the scale issue with the “fat” miniatures is a bit tough to resolve.
Just want to say what a great blog you got here!
I’ve been around for quite a lot of time, but finally decided to show my appreciation of your work!
Thumbs up, and keep it going!
Cheers
Christian
Keep posting stuff like this i really like it
WOW! oh my gosh!
This is what has been missing, it is like a Jedi mind trick or somthing – THIS IS THE CORRECT SCALE -this is the correct scale…
YOU DO NOT NOTICE THE CHUNKY MINI – I do not notice the chunky miniature…
All kiding aside though, thank you for the article and as you said above it is by far the most complete so far – I am no longer on the fence!
Scott
Hmmmm. OK, I’ll agree with you to an extent. However, that said- the point about the girth being off is not proved by your pictures. The bases spread the figures out much more than the real ones- if you were to have the figures standing purely on their integral cast bases, they’d be a lot closer together.
Another factor to consider is the choice of poses, particularly in the picture with the 1:56th tank- you’ve chosen figures that are *extremely* “wide” in their poses, so they will obviously not fit in. The fact that they are on 30mm-wide bases doesn’t help much either.
I’ve put my thoughts on the whole thing together at http://mainly28s.com/how_to/measuring_scale.html
Olaf